Tuesday, August 17, 2010

Hallowed Ground?

This is one of many New York City strip clubs that is located so close to "ground zero" that one must wonder where the protesters are. I mean, how can people get lap dances so close to where 3000 Americans died? There are also porn shops in the vicinity. Porn?!

I guess we now know that the anti-first amendment crowd on the right believes Islam is more offensive to them than pornography. Good to know.


T. Paine said...

That's pretty funny Splash.

The difference is that 19 lap dancers didn't kill 3000 people in this very area.

I was initially ambivalent regarding the mosque being built there, and while I still think they have a legal right to do so, they certainly cannot claim that this mosque is being built to "build bridges" and "foster tolerance".

The fact that New York Governor Patterson even offered state land to the mosque if they would move there, and they still declined, seems to say to me that they aren't interested in the sensibilities of other Americans, even though they can legally be there.

Dave Splash said...

You still obviously believe that all Muslims - no matter what - must carry some sort of collective guilt for the actions of those 19. This is a standard that you simply would not tolerate if placed on your own religion. But, true to form, the right shows that it believes the Bill of Rights only applies to certain people and not others.

Again, I wish I could say it doesn't follow a recent pattern on the right, but it is exactly what they have been doing for years.

As for the public land idea, multiple right wing sources have already attacked Patterson for the offer, by claiming it would show a "preference" to Muslims not afforded to other religions.

But, really, how far away from the gaping hole where the Twin Towers used to be is far enough away for this center? How many blocks, miles, yards, feet? What is the exact measurement, so no Muslims will ever offend the delicate sensibilities of Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich? Is there a constitutional clause to explain exactly how far away a mosque has to be?

This is a question conservatives refuse to answer because you guys all know that you are putting aside principal in exchange for politics and fear.

Jason said...

Of course if it were a church or a synagogue, the Right wouldn't be bitching at all and would instead welcome it.

And it's not right next to Ground Zero, it's two blocks away, which considering how densely packed city blocks there are packed, it's a good distance away.

Dave Splash said...

Jason, you are correct. The conservative view is that freedom of religion applies to all the various sects of Christianity, and they "tolerate" the Jewish faith, as well. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. must have their rights put to a vote.

Sadly, though, civil rights groups like the Anti Defamation League are lining up on the side of bigotry, too.

And I have been making the "two block away" argument for a long time. It falls on deaf ears. Sarah Palin even said just yesterday that this community center was being built at the site of 9/11. They are willing to say anything to score political points.

T. Paine said...

I would have the same problem if it were a church or synagogue being built there IF members proclaiming to be of that over-arching faith had been responsible for the deaths of 3000 Americans.

They CLAIM they wish to build bridges with non-Muslims by building this mosque there. Do you really believe that this is going to acheive that goal?

This would be akin to the Japanese buying a piece of property and building a memorial at Pearl Harbor. It might be legal, but it doesn't bring us all together.

Dave Splash said...

Paine, you still haven't explained why all Muslims need to share the guilt for the actions of 19. And based on your answers and postings, you do hold all of them, at least marginally, responsible for 9/11.

You know, tolerance is a two way street. It seems to me that no matter what American Muslims say or do, people on the right will always see them as guilty.

Jason said...

Okay, so the 19 hijackers are Muslim, so by Paine's and the rest of the right wing's logic, all Muslims are responsible.

So does that mean all Christians are responsible for the Oklahoma City Bombing and every other act of domestic terrorism committed by Christian Extremists who claimed they were doing it for God?

Yeah, how do you like them apples? Not so fun having that light shone back on you, is it?

T. Paine said...

You gentlemen are missing my point. I think they have every right to build the mosque and frankly the whole topic is a little overblown. Further, I don't lump all Muslims together.

I am very well aware of the differences between Shia, Sunni, Suffi, and Wahabi strains of Islam.

Most Americans are not, however.
Further, whether out of ignorance or whatever, if a majority of Americans would rather not have a mosque built near "ground zero", how does the continued plans to do so by these good moderate Muslims help their cause to build trust and bridges?

It is silly, but it comes down to a public relations fiasco, basically. The people behind the Cordoba House mosque could have garnered a lot more good will if they would have said, "Look, we absolutely understand the sentiments of the American people and similarly condemn those that have perverted our religion to kill other innocents. That being said, we had nothing to do with this but out of respect for the sentiments of those affected by the tragedy we have decided to relocate the mosque to a less controversial location. We hope we can grow in tolerance and goodwill as fellow American's together."

THAT would build some bridges. What is being done now, even though they are right in doing so, does NOT help their supposed cause.

Jason said...

"Most Americans are not, however."

And most Americans need to mind their own business. The location of Cordoba House is no one's concern except the people of Manhattan and they're overwhelmingly in favor of it.

Just because a lot of people are opposed to something doesn't mean they're right. A lot of people were against ending slavery and desegregation and giving blacks the right to vote. Doesn't mean they were right.

Dave Splash said...

Actually, I don't think I am missing your point, Paine. I think you are dancing around the central issue of this so-called debate. Opponents to this mosque are, in fact, lumping all Muslims together. Saying this is offensive to the "American people" implies that Muslim-Americans are not real Americans, and therefore, their opinions and rights don't count.

Having a right, but not the ability to exercise it, is the same as not having the right at all. This was a New York issue that New Yorkers settled long ago. This became controversial when right wing bloggers and talk radio hosts decided to make it an issue.

No one on your side has articulated exactly how far away from "ground zero" is far enough. How will the community center organizers know if another spot is far enough, or if it is too close to something else that some feel Muslims should stay away from?

This entire episode is very creepy and disheartening. I thought the American people were beyond this religious hatred. This episode shows that we still have a long way to go before our society lives up to the promise made by the Founders of this country for religious tolerance and freedom.

T. Paine said...

"I thought the American people were beyond this religious hatred." Oh please!

It is not only politcally correct, but it is encouraged to bash devout Christians by the militant progressives in this country.

It is interesting how the left, especially as manifested by the ACLU types, seem to despise and would deny Jews and Christians any semblance of a public display of their "religion", and yet they come to the defense of Islam in similar situations. Why is that, Splash?

Dave Splash said...

Cite a single example where "militant progressives" bashed devout Christians. That is such utter bullshit, that it does not even deserve a response.

Public display of religion? There are five freakin' churches within a one block radius of my house! No one is stopping Christians from building churches or community centers anywhere in the country. Total crap, and completely besides the point.

There have been five bombings at mosques in America just this year. Muslims have been denied permits to build mosques in dozens of communities all across the country. Can you cite a single comparable incident?

I do not understand, and probably never will, why conservatives suffer from such a persecution complex. You have this perception that you are being denied something, when you are never prohibited from doing anything. Muslims get their houses of worship firebombed, and you still view yourself as the aggrieved party. Muslims are denied permits to build mosques in numerous places, yet it is Christians who are being denied something? Please.

It's time that Christians in this country understand that they are one of many religions in the United States and not the supreme one. There is no official religion of the country, despite conservative Christians claims that theirs is.

Paine, I doubt you have ever experienced what it is like being a minority in this country. I have. Though I am white, I am Jewish, and have experienced it. Have you ever been the one different kid in a classroom of 30? Have you ever had an entire office be one religion and you be the only one who isn't? There are how many hundreds of millions of Christians in the US and how many Jews? Or Muslims? Or Hindus?

You guys have it all, and resent so much the idea of anyone else getting the same freedoms and rights that you have. Religious freedom is for everyone, Paine, not just for one religion. The era of America being a monolithic religious country are over. Now you are one of many, though still, by leaps and bounds, have a more dominant status.

Christian persecution in America? Puh-lease! That is laughable. If you want to make your religion the only one that gets 1st Amendment protection, then you better get to work on drafting and ratifying a new amendment to the constitution.